The Etiquette of Holiday fics

[geoviki]

Like all the rest of you, I'm delighting in the reams and reams of new stories and art (and this year's art is especially terrific!). There's the granddaddy, merry_smutmas, and then others like harry_holidays, hd_holidays, smutty_claus, lupin_snape.... an embarrassment of riches!

As we are encouraging each other as writers and artists, I'm trying to leave feedback as well. One thing that caught my notice, though, has left me feeling uneasy, and I wondered what your views are: In your opinion, is it uncouth to leave concrit that's negative on a fest fic? (Disclosure: this is not anything that's happened regarding my own fic, just other folk's.)

I don't see the author requesting any, for one thing. Personally, I won't do it, but then I never leave anything less than praise unless I'm asked specifically and privately. If I don't like something, I just pass it by. Which unfortunately is the same response to something I've not yet read, so the writer is never sure if I'm unhappy or just behind (if the writer even cares what I think), but there you go.

But IMHO, these stories are gifts. And I can't see criticising a gift. Am I over-sensitive? What do you authors and artists think?

Comments

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

i do leave concrit, yes, because i think it would be dishonest to leave that out and only say what i liked about a fic [well, if these things really bothered me]. i feel that most people appreciate if you mention what didn't work for you as a reader. i don't leave comments on stories that i didn't like at all. of course there are also stories that i adore 100% and i don't hesitate to say that :).

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

huh, after reading the other comments i now feel like i must be the most horrible person ever because i don't only squee on fest fics. i don't quite understand why there's a difference between leaving concrit on anon fics and on fics that has the auhtor attached to it.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

For me, it's not the anon/name-attached issue. It's more that quite often, the author is constrained - sometimes rather seriously - by the conditions the recipient has attached to the request. So it's no help to an author to say that the commenter didn't like, for example, a bottom Harry when that was specifically requested.

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

ahh, i see. yeah, i wouldn't point out something like that, but more things that confused me or that didn't work for me regarding characterizations. i guess it would be easier to assess an author's choices if the prompt were included somewhere in the header [which is something i don't do when writing a fest fic, but it's certainly worth thinking about]. i guess i'm thinking that the author will always be able to point things out to me after the reveal and when they repond to comments.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Speaking from my own experience of writing exchange fics (and really struggling to create something for a specific request), there's an extent to which I couldn't be sure what was done for a particular recipient and what was just less-than-stellar writing. I mean, cruise the requests -- people ask for some pretty crazy stuff. :-P

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

that's very true. i haven't looked up the requests for the smutmas fics that have been posted so far because it's kind of time-consuming to wade through pages of comments, but it's probably worthwhile to do that.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sometimes, the nature of the request itself is difficult for a particular author, or the request was specifically for something that another reader didn't like as much.

For me, I almost always like feedback, except for in these exchanges. There are a couple of reasons. First, I CAN'T edit. I don't have control over my own fic, once I submit it and it's posted. And I can't harass the moderator to alter or re-post my fic for me. Second, exchange fics aren't done out of pure inspiration. The fics are done for a purpose, with requirements, on a deadline, and that's not always a person's best writing environment, if you take my meaning. For some people, it brings out their best writing. For others, it's tougher. Some people were writing nearly a half-dozen fics for this holiday exchange season, between multiple fandoms. I'm not, but I know that would stress me out! And finally... you don't know who you're reviewing. We might judge a very good author more harshly than someone who is newer and just stretching their quill. If we leave harsh concrit for a newer author's story, without her even being able to identify herself and enter a dialogue, it's not a good way to gently encourage new authors. Yes, it's true that many people on these exchanges are experienced fandom writers, but not all of them. There are times for concrit, and there are times to grin over what people have put forth as their best effort. Sometimes, it's just nice to smile and appreciate.

And then... we have 11 other months to merrily rip each other's fics to shreds. :D

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

i don't really see pointing out a few things in an otherwise squeeful review as "ripping to shreds." if there are aspects of the stories that really bothered me, esp. if i liked the fic a lot in general, i'd practically be lying if i only said "this was awesome!".

i actually think that the anon exchanges are an opportunity to [unknowingly] leave concrit for well-known writers. i think that a lot of people are hesitant to speak their mind if seemingly everyone else thinks this author is amazing. but in anon exchange, you have no idea who you are leaving fb for. also, if a review really bothers an author, they always have the chance to respond anonymously [i certainly would]. there's no rule against that.

[ravenclaw-devi.livejournal.com]

We might judge a very good author more harshly than someone who is newer and just stretching their quill. If we leave harsh concrit for a newer author's story, without her even being able to identify herself and enter a dialogue, it's not a good way to gently encourage new authors.

*Devil's Advocate mode on* On the other hand, as coffeejunkii said, it might be a way for "big name" writers to get an honest opinion on their fics that they may otherwise not get because of the "Who am I to criticise that fabulous, fandom-famous writer?" factor. (Yes, the alliteration was deliberate.)

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think you've put your finger on my problem with it - the author has to wait until after the reveal to respond! When I get criticism I want to be able to explain my reasoning RIGHT AWAY!

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

technically, the author can always respond anonymously--just like a lot of people will respond anon to the comment left by the recipient of their fic. i certainly would choose that route if someone left a comment that i felt required an immediate response.

[titti]

I knew that story must have prompted this. Some of those comments were totally inappropriate, especially since it was such a good story, very elaborate, with an original plot. To say that it doesn't work because Harry would never bottom it's so stupid. I wanted to answer and ask when in canon does it say that Harry would never bottom? And does that apply to Draco only? Is he fine bottoming to Snape? *heads desk*

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Well, exactly. It hurt me as a reader, because I thought the story was utterly wonderful, and I wanted the author to feel the love. And instead the first comment was a litany of what that individual did and didn't like as far as pairing and identity. Which to me was a big WTF.

Late in the day...

[auctasinistra.livejournal.com]

... but I found this post interesting. It wouldn't have occurred to me that a gift or challenge fic, publicly posted and accessible, has different rules than any other public fic (which, to me, means fair game). See, the thing is, when a person signs up for a fest or fic exchange, they do it willingly and knowing full well their story is going to go out in public. You know? It's not really private, is it? That said, the point about criticizing a fic written to specifications is valid - but I was thinking it's kind of stupid, anyway, to say "Harry would never bottom!" (whether the fic was a fest fic written to that prompt or not), you know? But things like flow, grammar, plot holes ... well, those are whoopsies regardless of whether the fic was written to prompts or not, yes? An as for waiting for the author reveal ... well, the story's out there. People are reading it. That's when they want to respond, with squees and other things. Seems to me courteous critical comment is as appropriate then as it ever is with publicly posted fic.

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

proof that i'm not studying! :P

i agree with you, i think it's all well and nice to compare fic fests to exchange of x'mas presents but i don't think they quite work that way. it's not as if the author says "for giftee's eyes only". if a writer thinks concrit is valuable, then i think it would be valuable in all occasions. and if the writer wants to respond to something, they can do so anonymously.

i dunno, it strikes me as fandom making rather a big deal out of concrit again. i mean, what's the end zone? it would forever be a gift fic so why does it magically (no pun intended) become more appropriate to concrit it on jan 1st? -shrugs-

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

i obviously agree with you! i love that you're so pragmatic about this :). i'd always rather have a review that explains in detail what someone liked and didn't like over a squeeful response that i can tell isn't entirely honest.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

i dunno, it strikes me as fandom making rather a big deal out of concrit again. i mean, what's the end zone? it would forever be a gift fic so why does it magically (no pun intended) become more appropriate to concrit it on jan 1st? -shrugs-

It's not the anonymity that's at issue, for me. It's the giftiness. When the author posts the story to her own website or archive account or LJ, and indicates that she's presenting the story as something she's created, that's the point at which criticism is appropriate.

On the gifting website or LJ, the story is not about the author, it's about the recipient, and it's incredibly rude to the recipient to say, "Dude, your gift sucks."

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

i disagree on two points

a) if the fic is inherently a gift, then it doesn't really lose that charecteristic because it's posted elsewhere, it's always a gift fic. it's an arbitrary date that it gets posted elsewhere. what about authors who don't repost? i've nearly done that myself until i was reminded like 3 times to repost my springsmut fic to my LJ.

b) as i've mentioned to bethbethbeth below, "your story sucks" wouldn't ever qualify as concrit in my book. that's never an appropriate comment to say to anyone - author, recipient, mod or innocentbystander.

that's my take on it atleast. i don't buy into the whole fics are "sacred gifts" like the ones you exchange with family members/friends/co-workers etc. -shrugs- a fic is a fic is a fic to me :)

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

what about authors who don't repost?

To me this indicates a high likelyhood of the author's lack of desire to take ownership of the fic and claim it as something that is their's and have it presented for public consumption and consideration.

I do not repost fic exchange fics. Why? Because I don't write them for the public, or myself - I write them for the person I was assigned. The public reads in fic comms are irrelevant, and frankly since it was written for a single person it doesn't really matter what everyone else thinks of the fic - it's flatly none of their business.

When I write in general I write with the awareness of pleasing a broader audience and their input into the fic. When I'm writing for an exchange I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks should be there, except the person I wrote it for. That's the difference. In a fic exchange there's only one opinion that matters-

The recepient's.

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

that begs the question - why post it at all? you could just email the recipient the fic and you and the recipient can be happy.

i agree that a reviewer cannot dictate that their opinion matters but by the same token, if i have a reaction to a publicly posted fic, then i have a right to post it. the author (and all others) are completely welcome to scroll past it and not give a damn.

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

that begs the question - why post it at all? you could just email the recipient the fic and you and the recipient can be happy.


Because email to the recipent is not anonymous while the moderator posting the fic to a public community is. That's what makes it an anonymous gift.

And you're right. You've got the right to say anything you like on line. But having a right doesn't make it right.

I can tell someone that their ass looks big in those jeans when they didn't ask for my opinion, too, but that would be a petty, mean, and rude thing to do. So I don't.

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

ohh and i forgot to mention - i was reluctant to repost it to my lj because it felt redundant to me after reveals were done. but that was my experience and your high likelihood will still hold.

and i also meant, before you claim that the posting is to maintain anonymity, in my example, the mod can email it on your behalf. and i suppose by your stance you would take umbrage to mods requesting plenty of feedback for the anon authors? interesting, 'cos anon exchanges seem to want to garner higher than average feedback levels and the "buzz" factor is a critical element of these exchanges, from what i've seen.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

a) if the fic is inherently a gift, then it doesn't really lose that charecteristic because it's posted elsewhere, it's always a gift fic.

But when it's reposted elsewhere, that isn't where the recipient is looking for her present, right? In the context of the gift exchange, it's a gift. Outside that context, it's a story that an author chose to post publically. Like, it's the difference between the people at your birthday commenting on the ugly orange sweater your Aunt Marge gave you, and your hair dresser commenting on the ugly orange sweater you chose to wear to get your hair done in. Same object, different contexts.

what about authors who don't repost?

Authors who don't repost, to my way of thinking, haven't chosen that story to be representative of their work. Sometimes you write something for an exchange, and it's just not something you would have written, given your druthers. Or you ran out of time before the exchange to rewrite it to your satisfaction, but you submitted so as not to be banned from future participation. If they don't repost it publically, out of the context of the exchange, they're not looking for criticism on that story. For whatever reasons, they aren't interested in it anymore.

And, yes, sometimes the reason is just "I totally forgot" but, you know, life is not perfect.

as i've mentioned to bethbethbeth below, "your story sucks" wouldn't ever qualify as concrit in my book. that's never an appropriate comment to say to anyone - author, recipient, mod or innocentbystander.

Well, I'm glad you have such wisdom and discernment. Do you believe that everyone in fandom has your delicacy of feeling? Do you believe that you can, succinctly, clearly, and in a way that will be universally accepted, define concrit?

I don't. I don't even think it's healthy to try to define concrit (although I do think it's a good idea to discuss how to go about giving it.) But I don't think you get to the intelligent and helpful concrit without giving people the space in which to say, "The story sucks." And I know that intelligent and thoughtful people can sincerely disagree as to whether or not modes of argument are rude or belittling. (http://dkwilliams.livejournal.com/72428.html?thread=292332)

I think the only realistic method for concrit is to either allow everything or ban it all. In this particular instance, because it's more about the recipient than the writer, I'm in favor of banning it in the community.

I'm not particularly aghast at the people talking about the stories, in whatever manner, in their own LJs. I think it's tacky to criticize the fics publically before the reveals, but I fully realize that tackiness is in the eye of the beholder.

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

ahh but your aunt marge hypothetical still doesn't work because the players are all different - if the fic is the sweater, then presumably you (the recipient) are parading it around. by that logic, ONLY if/when the recipient posts the fic somewhere should the fic be available for critiquing. i won't be over here, holding my breath, for that day thanks to all the pesky "fic is writer's property" debates.

thank you for revalidating my mother's belief in my wisdom and discernment. but your condescending tone aside, while you may not agree with what's concrit or not, i think that when something is only rude i.e. if someone says "your story sucks" and leaves it at that, i fail to see anything constructive about it. that's my subjective take on it.

i agree with you that concrit tends to be an all or nothing affair. that is actually the precise reason why i think it should be permitted in gift exchanges/everywhere fic gets posted publicly. see, unlike gifts, fic still sorta belongs to the author and a concrit is a dialogue between a reader and the author. if you (author) don't want the dialogue, then the surefire way to ensure that is don't post it publicly. also, if you (author) want the dialogue but only want it to be "squee", then i'll just be over here rolling my eyes. if you(recipient) want everyone to squee over your gift fic, and can't handle anyone's concrit on it, then i suggest you don't read any of the feedback. or read it and respond to it. it's a free web after all.

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

When the author posts the story to her own website or archive account or LJ, and indicates that she's presenting the story as something she's created, that's the point at which criticism is appropriate

I agree, entirely. Until the fic is presented, name attatched, to a public space that fic wasn't written for the public TO criticise.

A fic that's published on the 'web it's published, it's out there for public consumption, it's the writer going "see what I did" and, IMO, requesting feedback.

When it's a fic exchange gift? No. It's something that was written for a single person. That's the difference for me. The audience.

Until it goes up in a comm with a name attatched, it's not there for me. I'm just a happy voyeur who needs to keep their mouth shut.