The Etiquette of Holiday fics

[geoviki]

Like all the rest of you, I'm delighting in the reams and reams of new stories and art (and this year's art is especially terrific!). There's the granddaddy, merry_smutmas, and then others like harry_holidays, hd_holidays, smutty_claus, lupin_snape.... an embarrassment of riches!

As we are encouraging each other as writers and artists, I'm trying to leave feedback as well. One thing that caught my notice, though, has left me feeling uneasy, and I wondered what your views are: In your opinion, is it uncouth to leave concrit that's negative on a fest fic? (Disclosure: this is not anything that's happened regarding my own fic, just other folk's.)

I don't see the author requesting any, for one thing. Personally, I won't do it, but then I never leave anything less than praise unless I'm asked specifically and privately. If I don't like something, I just pass it by. Which unfortunately is the same response to something I've not yet read, so the writer is never sure if I'm unhappy or just behind (if the writer even cares what I think), but there you go.

But IMHO, these stories are gifts. And I can't see criticising a gift. Am I over-sensitive? What do you authors and artists think?

Comments

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

I understand that people who are "I like concrit, I want concrit" types won't get this, but there's a fair amount of social pressure not to enjoy what other people see as imperfect and therefore unappealing.

When you, expert knitter, point out the dropped stitches in the sweater my mom just gave me when I wouldn't have even noticed them, you're applying that pressure.

When you, amateur literary critic, complain about things you didn't like in a story someone worked hard to write, hoping desperately that she would please me with it, you are applying that pressure.

Not on her. ON ME. And I don't want it.

[silentauror.livejournal.com]

The very first exchange I ever did, it was the MOD OF THE EXCHANGE who wrote for me and did that!!! It was a wank-themed exchange, wherein you could specificy whether you wanted solo wank or mutual, and if mutual, which pairing. I requested, very specifically (or so I thought), H/D mutual wank and got DM solo wank while sort of noticing in passing that HP was walking by or something, with an apologetic note about H/D squicking the author. So why, as the mod of the fest, s/he didn't give my request to one of the five hundred million fangirls or -boys who isn't squicked by H/D, I'll never know. But that's neither here nor there. :P

I always think I ask for too much, too, and then I see other people's requests after and realize with horror that I forgot to specify, like, "no Roman showers" or something, and panic. :P But then, there will always be someone who left a longer and pickier request than you did, I'm sure. :P

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

it puts the giftee in an awkward position of having to either defend their gift or ignore the criticism . . . I thought the author might think I was implicitly agreeing with it.

Absolutely.

Criticism of a gift is also a thwack at the good taste of the receiver, unless the receiver would enjoy complaining about the gift too.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

Criticism of a gift on a gift comm is going to have to also be criticism of the good taste of the receiver, unless she is willing to stand up and criticize her gift as well.

And somebody who was willing to do that . . . just, no.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Damn you, now I want this! Palomino!Draco. Didn't we all go through a horse-loving stage?

Although I hope there's no photomanip with that.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Well, exactly. It hurt me as a reader, because I thought the story was utterly wonderful, and I wanted the author to feel the love. And instead the first comment was a litany of what that individual did and didn't like as far as pairing and identity. Which to me was a big WTF.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what triggered this post of mine. And I came to the same conclusion: for it to be the first comment set a trend for others to do the same. It horrified me, because I thought it was the best thing I'd read in ages.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's a question: everyone always says (if they remember) No Scat! Yet have you ever read a fic that had poop-play in it at all? Why do we think our writers are gonna hit us up with this unless we warn them off?

I'm laughing at myself here. I'm sure I've said it too.

[catrinella.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this just today!

I'm half-tempted to run a scat-fest just to see if anyone would write, but then I'd have to mod it. Ooops.

[silentauror.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha, I know! :D I think it's partly because of Gina's dire, dire warning that if you don't say it, anything goes! The only poopy fic I've ever read was written for a squick fest in the first place, so I should have known better. But really, I mean, while I enjoy the occasional watersports fic, I wouldn't just go and write it for some person when they hadn't requested it specifically, because common sense tells me that this is most decidedly not everyone's kink. On the other hand, some things which I hate are considered commonplace by some, so... caution. :P

I always think I'm pretty easygoing about fic reading and such, but then I read everyone else's requests and go, "right, that! Oooh. Must mention not that, gross! And that!! Disgusting!!" and on it goes. :P

[busaikko]

I believe much of it is a matter of timing. When a story is up anonymously, the author has her hands tied. She cannot change the typos or rewrite awkward passages, or respond to defend her writing or even agree with criticism. I encourage concrit actively with anything I write, but would think WTF if told about typos on an anon fic. If the real reason for the concrit is to make it a better story, either posting it after the reveal or leaving a comment like 'I have a few bits of concrit--remind me to tell you later' would be more helpful.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

So I should watch what I say because it might make you uncomfortable as a reader? Guess I'm really not getting that and am seeing shades of the reviewgate cropping up here.

Following your comments and how me putting concrit on a story puts the onnus on you to not like it, some of the commenters here said they will only comment if they like something. Using the absense of their comments, I could assume that they didn't like it and view it as a form of concrit and/or criticism by that very absense. There's a pressure, then, knowing that some of the people here didn't comment, that they didn't like it and I wouldn't enjoy it. There are authors that are reading over these comments thinking that a or b didn't comment on their fic and so they obviously hated it.

I realise that you aren't going to agree with my example. I'm just trying to show that, no matter what someone does or doesn't do and/or say, that it can be twisted to leave a pressure on someone to do something if one allows it to.

[captain-tulip.livejournal.com]

Here via daily_snitch, and I definitely think that if people feel the burning need to leave criticism for a fic, they should at least wait until the author posts it to their own journal.

I think it's inappropriate to point out flaws in gifts, especially anonmyous ones. If your friend got a new pink miniskirt for Christmas, you'd never say, "Boy, I'm glad I didn't get that - I'd look terrible, and look at the design! It's shocking!" In the same way, I feel it's inappropriate to say "Bottom!Harry didn't work for me, and I feel you had some major plot flaws..." Well, it wasn't actually written for you, it was written for a recipient who requested very specific things, some of which may have been difficult to work around. Almost like a tailored suit - there's no point pointing out how it would never fit your measurements because, well, it wasn't made for your measurements.

I'm not someone who's against constructive criticism - in fact, in that no-so-recent wank, I was all for it. But there's a time and a place, and anonymous gift exchanges are not one of them. Especially because, if the author is anything like me, and they've worked their arses off to please their recipient, they really don't want to hear from people who didn't find it to their liking. Move on, and be glad the recipient got what they wanted. Go chase down the author and offer some con crit once you find out who it is, if you must - but don't be tainting the spirit of SmutChristmas! :)

[ashe-frost.livejournal.com]

Why did I for some reason picture something crack-ish or (possibly from FF.net) where Draco is in hiding from the war and Harry's daughter (by Ginny/Hermione/Luna/Cho or all of the above) wants a Pony.. And then they fall madly in love.

With or without beastiality.

Rimming a must.

And just to be on topic: Nothing but good things, unless possibly there's something wrong with the formatting that the mod needs to be aware of, like half of the fic being in italics.

[ex-marcasit.livejournal.com]

Criticism of a gift on a gift comm is going to have to also be criticism of the good taste of the receiver

Are you talking about criticism of something the receiver requested? If so, yeah, that would be really poor form.

All I know is that I haven't left what I would call negative feedback--just made a couple of points, one concerning a slight canon deviation and the other about pacing. So I don't feel like I personally did anything wildly inappropriate. But I have re-thought my approach towards FB on these types of exchanges, not just because of this post, but also because the negative comments I've seen at the gift exchange I've been visiting have really turned me off.

[arrmaitee.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree. If I don't like a holiday fic, I just don't comment at all. What's the point? It's a gift, and concrit -- even good concrit -- is often in poor taste because it devalues the gift to the person receiving it.

After all, would you really appreciate gift!art if all of the feedback was something like this:

"Wow. You can... umm... draw straight lines quite well" or "That would have been great, but your color choice left a lot to be desired and the edge's of Harry's glasses look smudged."

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

See, I'm of two minds about this. I don't usually leave concrit on anon exchanges, because I do think it's poor taste. But it also depends on what people consider concrit as opposed to opinionated criticism, and also how a commenter goes about it.

I mean, I wrote a story for a gift exchange where my recipient requested "Top!Sirius". If someone had left me a comment along the lines of saying "Sorry, but Sirius is a bottom and writing him as a top is just dumb", I wouldn't be offended at all - rather, I'd be inclined to think that that commenter was a complete idiot, because - hello! It's a gift fic and it's right there in the prompt in the header! See, that kind of crit, to me, is just moronic, because while a gift fic is absolutely out there for the public, it's for the specific recipient. That kind of crit will never make me think badly of an author. Ever. And, it's not constructive at all in the first place.

But, in reversathon, where all the participants have alias journals and reply to comments promptly under these pseudonyms, I don't look at it the same way as, say, Smutmas, where the mods post the fics. I left concrit for one author. I started off by gushing and telling them how much I enjoyed the story - and I really did. And then, I added this:

If there's one small bit of concrit I could offer, and I hope you don't mind, because it was the only thing that made me pause a few times during the story -- but I should add that I'm really anal about dialogue, so it might just be a peeve of mine. But it's to do with the dialogue, and it's having the parties speaking address each other by name frequently. Bill says "Dad" a lot to his father while they're speaking to each other. (Kingsley and Bill addressed each other by name when they spoke a couple of times where it felt a little off, (and I'm not speaking of when they first met) but not nearly as often.) Especially when there are only two people in the conversation, it's just a bit jarring to "hear". And normally I wouldn't make such a fuss, but I really adored this story, and that's the only bit that... poked at me.

To me, that was constructive. I really did like the story quite a lot, and yes, I was a bit divided as to whether I should say anything, but my comments had nothing to do with the request itself. It was because this is a point that I'd want to be told myself, that I decided to post it, so... I should say that the author seemed to be very gracious about it.

For me, when someone points something out like the above in one of my stories, I wonder several things. One, did other people read that and agree and not leave a comment because it annoyed them? Did other people want to say the same thing but were afraid to hurt my feelings? Were the other commenters just trying to be nice or make me feel better, or did they really not care/not notice?

I just think that there's a way to say things - and a lot of confusion around the definition of concrit vs. crit in the first place - and most of the time it seems that it's the delivery that causes more issues than the actual bit being singled out. There's a differece, I think, between being outright rude, being completely idiotic, and being tactful.

[kethlenda.livejournal.com]

I agree with the last point--if formatting is fubar, telling the mod is good. There have been times when I've left anon comments on my *own* fest fics saying, "Hey, this is the author, I seem to have bollixed up my formatting, could you please go in and close my italics tag?" LOL.

[chaeldub.livejournal.com]

WORD.

I was going to say *squee* but I thought that might be inappropriate.

*grin*

It's funny how people don't get that - if you don't comment then am I to understand you didn't like it? - part of writing. I've noticed it all over the place. I understand that some people are too busy to comment on all fics at this time of year (but this happens year round) and some don't like all pairings/kinks/blahblahetcetc, but if you see fic a. bottom!harry and dom!draco with 3 comments followed by story b. bottom!harry and dom!draco with a gazillion comments you can pretty much say that story a. possibly had some faults.

So i'm like you, i'd like people to say what problems they saw in my fic, that way I can improve my writing. So maybe next time when you come across one of my fics the same problem hopefully isn't there. Otherwise, how would anyone improve?

*heads back into the HyperDrive compartment looking for the Hydro Spanners*

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

proof that i'm not studying! :P

i agree with you, i think it's all well and nice to compare fic fests to exchange of x'mas presents but i don't think they quite work that way. it's not as if the author says "for giftee's eyes only". if a writer thinks concrit is valuable, then i think it would be valuable in all occasions. and if the writer wants to respond to something, they can do so anonymously.

i dunno, it strikes me as fandom making rather a big deal out of concrit again. i mean, what's the end zone? it would forever be a gift fic so why does it magically (no pun intended) become more appropriate to concrit it on jan 1st? -shrugs-

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

well said, w00kie. i'm with you. damn i forgot the word reviewgate. i need to try and work that into an exam answer or paper somehow. i would give myself major props for that :)

but yeah, i don't see why concrit suddenly becomes socially unacceptable due to being in a fest.

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

i dunno beth, isn't calling something "stupid and ugly" poor form in virtually all social situations? i am not sure i would classify that in the same leagus as concrit but i wasn't sure you meant to do that either.

i don't get the comparision to x'mas gifts, honestly. i mean, outside of the obvious timing and name of the ficathon, isn't it just being assigned a prompt from (in most cases) a stranger (i.e. not someone you may be friends with online)? is it just the "holiday spirit" extends to these specific ficathons or would all ficathon "gift" fics be excluded? should that cover any fic posted as "for so and so" too, at any other time of the year and/or not part of a ficathon? if the emphasis is on the fact that it's a gift, then shouldn't those fics forever be considered uncritiquable? (-makes up word-)

just trying to wrap my head around this :)

[waterbird.livejournal.com]

I'm in agreement with the overall consensus that criticising an anonymous exchange fic is not a cool thing to do. Even though I myself appreciate constructive criticism of my work, I realise that a lot of other writers don't want it or prefer to receive concrit privately. As long as the veil of anonymity is in place and the author's preference is unknown, I just wouldn't feel comfortable pointing out the things that didn't work for me.

However, if the anonymous author specifically asked for it in their author notes (I don't think I've ever seen this done, but I'm relatively new to the exchange scene), that would be different. Then I would probably make a conscious effort to mention something in my comments, sort of as a way of giving back to the writer. But I would keep it well balanced -- or, more likely, tilted very much towards the positive rather than the negative.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

It depends on what the concrit is.

If it's something objective (like grammar), or something where you really feel the structure of the story might benefit, I'd wait until after the reveal and then email the author privately, or even leave a comment, depending. I've had mentions of typos made, and that doesn't bug me in the least, but anything more than that....

Overall, I kind of feel "move along" is the best response, but if it's something objective that's really nagging you, and you're giving it to help the poster become a better writer, delaying that part of your response until after the reveal might be the best strategy.

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think of all anonymous exchanges in this way.

A challenge that's made up of prompts, assigned or chosen, is one thing. However, exchange fests are not just about the writer; they're also about the recipient. I have little problem with off-comm critiques (pro or con) even though I wouldn't personally write negative critiques even in my journal while the fest was going on), but after the fest? Off the site? When the writer re-posts the story to her/his own journal? That doesn't feel rude in the same way to me.

And when people say no concrit in their author notes, I wouldn't send them any...ever. However, that kind of note wouldn't stop me from writing a review in my own journal if I felt like it.