The Etiquette of Holiday fics

[geoviki]

Like all the rest of you, I'm delighting in the reams and reams of new stories and art (and this year's art is especially terrific!). There's the granddaddy, merry_smutmas, and then others like harry_holidays, hd_holidays, smutty_claus, lupin_snape.... an embarrassment of riches!

As we are encouraging each other as writers and artists, I'm trying to leave feedback as well. One thing that caught my notice, though, has left me feeling uneasy, and I wondered what your views are: In your opinion, is it uncouth to leave concrit that's negative on a fest fic? (Disclosure: this is not anything that's happened regarding my own fic, just other folk's.)

I don't see the author requesting any, for one thing. Personally, I won't do it, but then I never leave anything less than praise unless I'm asked specifically and privately. If I don't like something, I just pass it by. Which unfortunately is the same response to something I've not yet read, so the writer is never sure if I'm unhappy or just behind (if the writer even cares what I think), but there you go.

But IMHO, these stories are gifts. And I can't see criticising a gift. Am I over-sensitive? What do you authors and artists think?

Comments

[karadin.livejournal.com]

well, I had to pop in for my two cents, I cruised some holiday fics, and was surprised at the first quite critcal comments, mostly because they began with this didn't work and this didn't etc. It may be because the postings are anon, people feel they have the freedom to say what they want, as opposed to say, seeing a BNF name on a fic, I rarely leave negative feedback, I usually post what I enjoyed about it, and if I have a question about something that didn't scan for me, I ask it.

If the author has chosen to write a bottom Harry or rentboy Draco or what have you, it doesn't matter to me, I take each fic as a new expereince, I don't intend to make a story conform to my desires, hell, I've found my favorite fics by reading pairings and sceanrios that I didn't think would appeal, it's up to the author, as always to make it work. Sorry for the long bather.

[geniusartist.livejournal.com]

Hi -- I'm here via The Daily Snitch. And I agree with everyone who's already stated that leaving concrit on gift fics is inappropriate. I also think it's in poor taste.

I stumbled onto someone's LJ the other day and discovered that this person is publicly posting negative (IMHO) reviews of all the smutmas stories. It made me sick to my stomach. The idea of someone taking another person's "gift" and smashing it to bits in public (and without regard for the gifter or giftee -- particularly as the anon author can't respond at this time) is revolting to me.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

*balks* Really?!? Who's LJ is this? I want to rip this person a new ass hole. PLEASE link me?

[mayflo.livejournal.com]

Welp, I woudln't mind getting concrit myself. Just because it's a gif art, doesn't mean it's perfect. I myself see flaws and wonkiness in my own art :P Plus art is so much easier to detect who the artist is (very hard to conceal one's style, darnit) so the person might be saying that because they recognised you.

On the other hand, whenever you get a negative FB, that's gotta hurt no matter what *ouch* That'll make me all sukly and mopy but I'll get over it :P

Personally though, I would never leave a con-crit (unless there's something like an obvious error like a misspelling as in Hairry ot something *lol* That, I may point out) but never a negative comment. I never leave negative comments. I'm following a great advise from my flist that if you don't have something nice to say, then say nothing at all...!

[lavinialavender.livejournal.com]

I think it differs from case-to-case, but I think many authors, who value their writing skill and want to improve (professionally or not), want concrit even in these cases. I think only if it's a gift fic for a specific person, and especially if it's done lightly, it would be a little inappropriate to leave really heavy concrit.

[twigged.livejournal.com]

I'm late to the party here, so I'll just say I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[ceilidh]

I think it's tacky to concrit a gift fic in public, mostly because of the recipient's feelings than anything to do with the author. If you want to concrit a gift fic, do it in email to the author. You could be spoiling the recipient's fun by publically broadcasting your oh-so-helpful concrit. (you = random fic concritter, not you = geoviki!)

I think it's extremely, incredibly tacky to concrit a gift fic in an anonymous exchange, especially while the author is still anonymous! I have seen pages of self-righteous commentary on certain Smutmas fics taking place on various livejournals, and the only thing I can think of that's tackier is actually doing it on the fic post itself. Most authors who are amenable to concrit would actually like to respond to that concrit, but they can't for possibly a month or more if it's an anon fest. If you're just chomping at the bit to concrit, write up your concrit and then SAVE IT and email it to the author after they can claim it as theirs.

The only time I feel it's appropriate to concrit a fic written for you as a gift is if it's clear the person clearly disregarded your prompt. If you say 'no bondage please' and there is bondage, well, I would probably call that out. (in PRIVATE email with the author.) I would never criticize something other than blatant disregard of your requests, because for all you know, your fic could have been a pinch hit done by a very gracious person at the extreme last minute because the person who was supposed to write for you dropped out.

[ravenclaw-devi.livejournal.com]

Well, technically, the authors could respond while still anonymous in the form of doing an anon-reply stating, "Hello, I'm the author of this fic and..." They'd just have no way of proving that they actually are the author, and not some other anon who wants to make them look bad or what have you.

[joanwilder.livejournal.com]

For me, it comes down to the gift-thing. As I'm out of the loop on what was asked for, far be it from me to diminish the recipient's enjoyment by pointing out things that are perhaps related to her request.

Many authors are writing 'out of their element.' The finished product will not be perfect--there may be awkwardness/OCC-ness/plot difficulties, but I dare say that most have done their best to produce what was requested. And as a recipient, I'll be honored that a writer took the time and effort to give me what I wanted, and I'll pin that up proudly on my figurative refrigerator and love every macaroni piece of it, because it's mine.

I will say, however, that after the fest is over, I plan to post my merry_smutmas on my own jounal. Concrit is always welcome there. That's the place for it, not now in the fest communities.

[busaikko]

I believe much of it is a matter of timing. When a story is up anonymously, the author has her hands tied. She cannot change the typos or rewrite awkward passages, or respond to defend her writing or even agree with criticism. I encourage concrit actively with anything I write, but would think WTF if told about typos on an anon fic. If the real reason for the concrit is to make it a better story, either posting it after the reveal or leaving a comment like 'I have a few bits of concrit--remind me to tell you later' would be more helpful.

[captain-tulip.livejournal.com]

Here via daily_snitch, and I definitely think that if people feel the burning need to leave criticism for a fic, they should at least wait until the author posts it to their own journal.

I think it's inappropriate to point out flaws in gifts, especially anonmyous ones. If your friend got a new pink miniskirt for Christmas, you'd never say, "Boy, I'm glad I didn't get that - I'd look terrible, and look at the design! It's shocking!" In the same way, I feel it's inappropriate to say "Bottom!Harry didn't work for me, and I feel you had some major plot flaws..." Well, it wasn't actually written for you, it was written for a recipient who requested very specific things, some of which may have been difficult to work around. Almost like a tailored suit - there's no point pointing out how it would never fit your measurements because, well, it wasn't made for your measurements.

I'm not someone who's against constructive criticism - in fact, in that no-so-recent wank, I was all for it. But there's a time and a place, and anonymous gift exchanges are not one of them. Especially because, if the author is anything like me, and they've worked their arses off to please their recipient, they really don't want to hear from people who didn't find it to their liking. Move on, and be glad the recipient got what they wanted. Go chase down the author and offer some con crit once you find out who it is, if you must - but don't be tainting the spirit of SmutChristmas! :)

[arrmaitee.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree. If I don't like a holiday fic, I just don't comment at all. What's the point? It's a gift, and concrit -- even good concrit -- is often in poor taste because it devalues the gift to the person receiving it.

After all, would you really appreciate gift!art if all of the feedback was something like this:

"Wow. You can... umm... draw straight lines quite well" or "That would have been great, but your color choice left a lot to be desired and the edge's of Harry's glasses look smudged."

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

See, I'm of two minds about this. I don't usually leave concrit on anon exchanges, because I do think it's poor taste. But it also depends on what people consider concrit as opposed to opinionated criticism, and also how a commenter goes about it.

I mean, I wrote a story for a gift exchange where my recipient requested "Top!Sirius". If someone had left me a comment along the lines of saying "Sorry, but Sirius is a bottom and writing him as a top is just dumb", I wouldn't be offended at all - rather, I'd be inclined to think that that commenter was a complete idiot, because - hello! It's a gift fic and it's right there in the prompt in the header! See, that kind of crit, to me, is just moronic, because while a gift fic is absolutely out there for the public, it's for the specific recipient. That kind of crit will never make me think badly of an author. Ever. And, it's not constructive at all in the first place.

But, in reversathon, where all the participants have alias journals and reply to comments promptly under these pseudonyms, I don't look at it the same way as, say, Smutmas, where the mods post the fics. I left concrit for one author. I started off by gushing and telling them how much I enjoyed the story - and I really did. And then, I added this:

If there's one small bit of concrit I could offer, and I hope you don't mind, because it was the only thing that made me pause a few times during the story -- but I should add that I'm really anal about dialogue, so it might just be a peeve of mine. But it's to do with the dialogue, and it's having the parties speaking address each other by name frequently. Bill says "Dad" a lot to his father while they're speaking to each other. (Kingsley and Bill addressed each other by name when they spoke a couple of times where it felt a little off, (and I'm not speaking of when they first met) but not nearly as often.) Especially when there are only two people in the conversation, it's just a bit jarring to "hear". And normally I wouldn't make such a fuss, but I really adored this story, and that's the only bit that... poked at me.

To me, that was constructive. I really did like the story quite a lot, and yes, I was a bit divided as to whether I should say anything, but my comments had nothing to do with the request itself. It was because this is a point that I'd want to be told myself, that I decided to post it, so... I should say that the author seemed to be very gracious about it.

For me, when someone points something out like the above in one of my stories, I wonder several things. One, did other people read that and agree and not leave a comment because it annoyed them? Did other people want to say the same thing but were afraid to hurt my feelings? Were the other commenters just trying to be nice or make me feel better, or did they really not care/not notice?

I just think that there's a way to say things - and a lot of confusion around the definition of concrit vs. crit in the first place - and most of the time it seems that it's the delivery that causes more issues than the actual bit being singled out. There's a differece, I think, between being outright rude, being completely idiotic, and being tactful.

[waterbird.livejournal.com]

I'm in agreement with the overall consensus that criticising an anonymous exchange fic is not a cool thing to do. Even though I myself appreciate constructive criticism of my work, I realise that a lot of other writers don't want it or prefer to receive concrit privately. As long as the veil of anonymity is in place and the author's preference is unknown, I just wouldn't feel comfortable pointing out the things that didn't work for me.

However, if the anonymous author specifically asked for it in their author notes (I don't think I've ever seen this done, but I'm relatively new to the exchange scene), that would be different. Then I would probably make a conscious effort to mention something in my comments, sort of as a way of giving back to the writer. But I would keep it well balanced -- or, more likely, tilted very much towards the positive rather than the negative.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

It depends on what the concrit is.

If it's something objective (like grammar), or something where you really feel the structure of the story might benefit, I'd wait until after the reveal and then email the author privately, or even leave a comment, depending. I've had mentions of typos made, and that doesn't bug me in the least, but anything more than that....

Overall, I kind of feel "move along" is the best response, but if it's something objective that's really nagging you, and you're giving it to help the poster become a better writer, delaying that part of your response until after the reveal might be the best strategy.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Argh! Being totally selfish here, but I'm trying to figure out which story y'all are referring to, because I want to read the naughty comments! It was so much easier to keep up with wank back in the days of the email lists....

Meanwhile, back on topic: It is best to avoid negative criticism in a gift fic exchange, for all the reasons stated above.

And on the related topic of putting the prompt in the headers: I like that idea. This was my first year to participate in such an exchange, and I worked my butt off trying to match the request as closely as possible. I put the prompt as the story summary because I wanted everyone to see how well I handled the assignment, and I would love to see the prompts other people are writing for.

[karaz.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving constructive criticism on an anonymous gift fic - but the comments I think are being referenced here didn't really strike me as all that constructive. It seemed they were more like complaints about personal preferences. Not to be a total bitch, but why should anyone care if someone didn't like the pairing/dynamic the giftee wanted? We already know it's not their request so that sort of criticism is just irrelevant. Whining on about it in a comment is pretty wanky behavior, and you're absolutely right to be offended by it.

[bunney.livejournal.com]

I'd rather receive negative feedback than to wonder forever if the recipient even read it. That's happened to me and it's incredibly frustrating.

You can always phrase your feedback in such a way that you aren't necessarily commenting on the fic itself but rather on the writer's hard work in creating it.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Seeing as one of the fics I wrote was posted on one of the exchanges, and it got lots of good feedback, except for one: the freaking person I wrote it for! It's like, DAMN, if you wanted to be part of an exchange, at least pay attention to whether your fic was posted for you! (And yeah, it's been up for several days now.) *grumbles*

[snegurochka_lee]

Here from the newsletters. I agree with those saying concrit or any crit on anon stories is not appropriate, and thus won't rehash their arguments.

I would like to add, however, that readers do not necessarily know which stories were written by pinch-hitters. It's fine to go into a story and think, "Oh, this needs a bit of ironing out in places," but it's very possible that the story was written in four days, to spare the recipient from not getting anything at all!

I think that's reason enough to hold the concrit in anon exchanges, and by doing so possibly give a pinch hitter a break. :)

[firestorm717.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in concrit for any sort of fannish product, or even any real product, given as a gift, whether it be for a birthday or a holiday or whatever. Simply put, would you criticize - even in a constructive way - a homemade gift such as...a hand-knit scarf or something, given to you or someone else as a gift? I would have to say no. Even if your criticism is constructive, like pointing out that the ends are loose here or the knitting is uneven there, it just...ruins the whole mood of the gift-giving. I know some people are thickskinned when it comes to criticism, but for the rest of us who are not, even constructive criticism in a positive setting can feel somehow hurtful, especially if the target of that critique is something written or produced in a moment of love/altruism. It goes against the grain. Like separating work and plan - I might give constructive criticism on a scarf that someone knit for a class or was perhaps knitting at the moment on a whim, but I would not give that criticism if the scarf was a heartfelt heirloom or a special gift, no matter how awful it is knit from a strict technique standpoint.

[venivincere]

I'm pretty much of the opinion that I shouldn't knock a gift horse in the mouth. Since pretty much all we read are gifts to fandom one way or the other, I don't think it's polite unless the author specifically requests it. Holiday fests are about giving, not getting, so I don't think it's appropriate for an author to ask for concrit at all in that sort of forum, either. But after the reveal, anything goes. :-)

[celisnebula.livejournal.com]

At the moment, the only holiday challenge I've really had a chance to participate in is the sshg_exchange, but on the whole, when it comes to something like this, if I can't say something nice, I just don't say anything at all. The people participating in these challenges are (hopefully) giving their best effort (even if they are a pinch hitter) writing to a prompt that might not even suite them, so I don't want to be the person raining down on their parade telling them what I disliked about what they wrote or their style.

[starbrow.livejournal.com]

I'm completely in two minds about this, but it breaks down like this:

I'm usually very much in favor of concrit, but doing it in the comments on someone's fic just, to me, looks like an attempt to embarrass them in public. Concrit should be emailed, or communicated another way.

Also, the relevance of the comments should be considered. If the fic's been uploaded somewhere it can't be edited, most concrit points are going to be pretty much useless. And as for criticising the choices that were made regarding the plot, etc, that doesn't work too well either, because of the very good point people have already made about the recipient's wishes. There's a time and a place for concrit, and a gift exchange is not the place to be doing it. If you must, wait until the author is revealed, and email your comments.

I'm actually terrified of being torn apart by fandom when Yuletide goes up, and at the moment wishing I'd never participated, I'm that afraid of having all my flaws pointed out in the bright lights of the Yuletide site.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say anything bad about a gift I received but have critiqued fics that other people received on a public exchange the way I would critique every fic. And yes that included on instance of "Maybe you should get a beta-reader spellchecker".

It's the difference between complaining about a fic you got and taking somebody aside and telling them that maybe they could have been more thoughtful when picking a gift for outside person C.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I leave only positive comments on fics I liked (even if I did have criticism as well) and don't comment at all on fics I didn't like. That's pretty much how I leave fb at other times as well, because I don't really want to deal with angry authors (even if they say they want concrit in their headers, I won't say anything unless I really know for sure they mean it). I write reviews of everything I read on my journal anyway, so I can talk about any criticism I had there. I do write reviews of gift fics as well, but as with all my reviews I am careful to distinguish between bad writing and things that are just not my thing, but which others might enjoy. But the reviews are mainly for me to write my thoughts on what I read, which is why they're on my journal.

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

I say if the criticism is constructive and meant to assist the author, then leave whatever you want. We can't all expect to have a slew of perfect reviews all the time, not even in fic fests. I also think that if you can find something negative about a fic, you can also find something positive. If the feedback is dealt with in a polite, constructive, non-hurtful way, then I think it's fine to leave a little negative feedback.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom

In your opinion, is it uncouth to leave concrit that's negative on a fest fic?

Very much so. Fest fic are gifts, just the same as a physical box of chocolates, pair of ear-rings, CD, DVD, etc. etc. etc.

I am sure (or maybe I'm just too optimistic) that people wouldn't go to a party and when the hostess opened her presents go 'Urgh, that necklace/picture/whatever is dreadful' or even 'Nice enough, but look at the finish', in a loud enough voice for other people to hear - surely they wouldn't, would they? Well, it's exactly the same with gift fic. If you leave any kind of critcism, no matter how con, it's meant to be, it is still basically rubbishing the gift in a public forum.

But IMHO, these stories are gifts. And I can't see criticising a gift. Am I over-sensitive? What do you authors and artists think?

No, you're not. Not at all. I'm with you one hundred and ten percent. It totally bad manners. As an author I'd be devastated if it happened to me, as a comment leaver, it would just never occur to me to do so. I'm like you insofar as I don't leave any kind of comment other than positive anyway, unless asked and then I'd do in privately, and even then I feel uneasy. But for a gift fic, totally wrong.