You may ask yourself: How did I get here?

[geoviki]

I suppose I'm late to the party, but anyway...

I was actually aware of the HP hatefic place. My first (and second and third) reaction to the idea of such an LJ site was: "Why would someone feel the need to post an anonymous rant about someone's writing? And why so much vitriol?"

Notice that I wasn't surprised at its existence - a year in fandom has illustrated plenty of wankiness to illuminate me. The behavior I recognize; the motivation remains mysterious. But sociologists study this kind of thing - it's the same impulse that leads to road rage. That causes a tiny minority of waitstaff to secretly spit in customer's food. That led to an aquaintance to succumb to the sick urge to vandalize expensive cars with a sharp object.

I should just let this pass without comment. I'm certain that no one who reads my LJ would buy into a place whose documented philosophy encompasses "spreading the hate more easily". But I feel a rant coming on (it's a little like an impending sneeze).

I was made aware that A Thousand Beautiful Things has earned its own thread there.

No, I'm not personally affected. I'm not stupid - I know with certainty that this story is not everyone's cup of tea. That doesn't bother me in the least. Nor does the content of the thread hit me where I live. Water off a duck's back.

I welcome constructive criticism. I prefer to know your street cred, though, so I can decide how seriously you know your stuff. I've received so many useful comments, and I take that kind of help on board. But somehow, "made me want to scratch my eyes out with a spork", while fulfilling the "criticism" part of the equation, just doesn't seem to be particularly constructive. And "Can only be read by losers that have nothing else to do with their time" I find less than useful.

Other LJ-ers have discussed the anonymous commenting aspect of this site. I think that topic is intimately linked with content - embracing both what is said and how it's said. Let's face it, no one questions anonymous praise. But honestly, this kind of behavior says very little about the fic being attacked, but speaks volumes about the person commenting.

And I feel a sort of perverse pride at being noticed - other threads condemn Isis (who apparently causes the same kind of spork-wielding behavior in her detractor), A.J. Hall (who rates two threads), Maya, Resonant, Aja, Dementordelta, Frances Potter, Emma Grant, Switchknife, Amanuensis, Nimori, and Cassie Claire. They do say you are known by the company you keep - I am honored to be among this crowd!

So my profound conclusion: it's just ugly.

And because I love to quote song lyrics, here are two: Ricky Nelson and Bob Dylan (I'll let you parse out which is which):

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself."

"I used to care, but things have changed."

Okay < /rant >.

Comments

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad that the thread on your story didn't get you down. IMO, one of the biggest lessons of life is accepting that not everyone is going to like us. And for writers, not everyone is going to like what we write. There are people I've met in fandom who are lovely, intelligent, thoughtful, etc. -- but I can't bear to read their stories. That doesn't mean the story is BAD -- it means it's not to my taste. Period.

I don't know what I'm trying to say here! Maybe just an admiring thumbs up to you for not taking the vitriol to heart. :)

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Thanks. You understood exactly what I was trying to say.

I thought about how I felt about my post before composing it. When I realized that felt no different because my ox was being gored than I had when it was other writer's oxen, I felt able to talk about it.

I have no doubt their dislike is genuine, and I don't call that into account. However, the rest of us seem quite able to admit, yes, this story didn't push my buttons, let's see what's next on my reading list. For reasons unfathomable to me, a few people need to go off and waste their time in seekrit little vendettas.

But I think I need to point out the damage caused, not to me, but to our community when people think this is perfectly acceptable.

Ah, well. Wonder what's next on my reading list...

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

The alleged reason for the anonymity was that the BNFs screaming fangirls would come round and beat up anyone who dared to challenge their heroine's greatness and who was identifiable.

Actually, I thought the idea of having screaming fangirls risible to begin with, but it also occurred to me that in my case the threat would run something like "And my minions will come round to your lj and make pointedly sardonic comments about your misuse of the apostrophe, and the prevalence of the hanging participial phrase".

I agreed with lexin though, that people who claimed that they wouldn't have minded if the criticism hadn't been anonymous were probably mainly over-egging it. If you are going to mind about that sort of thing, I suspect you will whatever. What anonymity did do, was make the quality of the criticism poorer, I reckon.

I also couldn't quite see the point of criticism which essentially ran "stop writing. Or, if you must write, don't try to deal with any serious issues because that isn't what fanfic is about." One would have thought that it was a broad enough playing field for it to be about a lot of things, and if someone can't stand my style then they'd do better off trying to find someone whose style is more compatible than trying to persuade me to change. Quite apart from anything else, I don't know how.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

"Screaming fangirls". As always, I'm behind the curve here...I have not been assigned my quota of them. Is there a web site where one signs up? Or are they automatically issued like these new gmail accounts?

I'm well short of minions these days as well. My son just bought two hermit crabs, however - maybe I can train them while they're still young to threaten any potential detractors. "You will read this fiction and love it, or I will pinch off your important bits..."

I thought the anonymity issue was a smokescreen to the far more important issue of what was being offered up under its guise. I saw no comments that could begin to improve anyone's writing. You got the "this is too difficult for me to follow" stuff. I got "posting a completed fic was a kindergarten effort". Well, that and the spork thing, which I find extremely funny in a weird way. I think I'll run off and make spork icons now as an insider joke.

Anyway, I am proud to be dissed in the same electronic space as you and the others. Maybe we should have little banners on our user_info pages proclaiming it (or warning away potential victims).

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

Well, criticism of one's work which begins "this is too difficiult for me to follow" simply invites the comeback "why should I have to adjust my style to compensate for your educational inadequacies?"

I don't know where one gets the fangirls; it's just automatically assumed that when one reaches a certain (not very high) threshhold of name recognition in any fandom, they accrue to one like barnacles.

Actually, though they weren't screaming, I did notice at Nimbus that Cassie certainly has fans (ie, people who thought it enhanced their own status to be seen hanging out with her) as well as on-line friends and admirers (whom one presumes have worked out from her writing and generally that she'd be a fun person to know), though I think the latter class are in the majority, and I don't think she does all that much beyond simply existing to encourage the former class. But given that there are an awful lot of insecure people in fandom, I suppose that sort of thing does provoke spite.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

I failed to mention, also, that I consider myself one of your screaming fangirls. Well, screaming may be pushing it. When I've had enough wine, I do get a bit loud, though - will that do?

Although minionhood would also do, if that position is still available.

music: Wedding Bell Blues - Laura Nyro

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

just some run-by *hugs*, b/c even though it sounds like you're dealing with it (and i like how you use the fact that your 'company' is indeed impressive [and deservedly so, i might add *g*] as a compliment rather than an insult!), i know that amount of hatred and vitriol does feel horrid no matter how much we're beyond that. the fact that someone purposefully posted this, intend on hurting you just sucks beyond the telling of it (b/c what else is accomplished by that type of public venting?).

so...simply sending lots of love and hugs out west :-)

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the support. Surprisingly, I really don't feel horrid after reading the comments. My objection is to what the stated purpose of a site like this tries to achieve. It's a detraction from our fandom.

And in all honesty, I don't think people posted their comments with the intent of hurting me, actually. I think their motivation is more obscure. To tell the truth, I don't have a real handle on it, but I think there was some resentment at the attention that ATBT received. I think these readers really did have the honest reaction of not liking it, but went farther and felt the need to (this is where motivation becomes unclear) show someone(?) they were too cool/perceptive/intelligent to jump on that fic's bandwagon.

Maybe.

[kupukello.livejournal.com]

How come I always miss these wanks? Is there a secret place where all this happens? I just see mentions here and there that nasty things are going on but I've no idea where to go and see for myself? After a year and a half in fandom I've only seen one hate thread and even that one vanished in a day or two.

I'm glad though that you have been able to see what that particular thread is about: YOU'RE FAMOUS!! *grin*

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

I have to laugh - famous in a tiny obscure part of the online world of 1) HP fans 2) who write or read fanfiction 3) primarily slash. Because I still have to spend my Saturday afternoon sweating in the sun and pulling weeds like a house elf. Or should that be yard elf?

Hey, I want minions (see AJH's comment, above). I want something tangible!

Oh, I did get great photos of Belgravia. I'm happy!

Seriously, the big benefit of ATBT has been connecting with a raft of new LJ friends and getting closer to old LJ friends like you.

Thanks for your support!

[oneminutemovies.livejournal.com]

I should have mentioned earlier, but I printed out your story and took it on vacation with me and it was lovely. I'll be your minion if you like.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Thanks, oh mysterious friend. I've been trying to figure out more about you ever since you friended me...to no avail. But welcome, welcome.

I need more minions!

Maybe I'll concoct a minion-joining kit, complete with personal identification, bumper sticker, and specially-colored hair ties.

The current criterion for minion status seems to be, um, claws (see above). But I'd be willing to waive that in favor of long nails.

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

and I'd been bragging to my husband about how nice it was in *my* fandom. sheesh...
I wasn't aware of the hatefic lj- and wouldn't want to read it myself- it'd turn me off the community. Not that unadulturated praise is all there should be, but careless, thoughtless, and nasty comments without basis defeats the purpose of criticism.
That's just flaming.
Con/crit is difficult. One really has to think about the fic, what it's trying to do, why it works, what parts don't, and offer suggestions... and hey, I expect it to be intelligent...
(offers hugs)...
That said, I solemnly swear to leave at least a paragraph "comment" on every fic I like.
If there's stuff out there that's unhelpful and nasty, we'll have to do our own bit to make up for it.

kisses~

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

I solemnly swear to leave at least a paragraph "comment" on every fic I like.

You know, I toyed with the idea of not saying anything about this whole issue, but your comment made it worthwhile to me.

And concrit is good - I like the idea of the new community hp_fictalk where we can discuss in the way you're talking about.

I think hate sites collapse of their own angsty weight soon enough. It seems to be a handful of folks who even bother with it; their impact is pretty small.

Thanks for the kisses, too!

[dementordelta.livejournal.com]

Dang, where's the comm? If I'm in such good company, I'd love to know what they're saying!

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'd been resisting posting the location, but I know I get frustrated when something is all hot topic and I can't find it, so here:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/fanfic_hate/550.html

Now I'm sorry to say you don't get the witty and potentially icon-ific spork. But even better, you get the extremely descriptive ice pick!

Although whoever dissed PTT got bitch-slapped right away (and rightly so) by the next comment, and no one has dared to poke their head out of the swamp since.

Because PTT isn't the most popular fic on Skyehawke for no reason. I find it extremely well-written and hot.

[dementordelta.livejournal.com]

Not anymore! I've been toppled, and I can't think of anyone better to have the Top Spot at Skyehawke.

*hands over crown*

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

No, I'm afraid I cannot accept this honor.

Because ATBT has 9 chapters, and every chapter gets a hit, whereas PTT has only one chapter. So you have to divide my total by 9 or so. With some adjustments for the folks who think it sucks and stop at chapter 2.

I must insist that you Still Rule!

[painless-j.livejournal.com]

I respect for the people who don't sign their names when criticizing or praising is next to nothing, or maybe precisely no respect at all. My reaction is sort of like this: if you aren't able to tell me who you are, why would I pay any attention to what you say? We have a saying, "a dog barks, the wind carries it away" - about such people, it means smth like "I don't care about your opinion because you behave like that dog". It's ultimately undignified, this desire to bark like a tiny ill-trained lapdog. I just can't take such people and their 'hates' seriously.
I had the same reaction when BNF death-matches were on. If you are so scared that you'll be treated badly for your opinion, keep this opinion to yourself, you miserable thing, nobody is interested anyway.
Ah well, I'm not being nice, but I'm angry. I'm always angry with such behaviour. It's exactly like what you named at the beginning of your post - waiter's spitting in food or scratching expensive cars. Disgusting, pathethic creatures.

[btw, the pic in your comment wasn't Hermione, it was Draco again :) Subconscious? I went to your pic page but ... I can't see Herm. Could you choose it in the reply to this comment?]

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

To me, this whole hatefic thing is the difference between:

"My neighbor bought a Pontiac Aztek automobile. I think they're stupid looking and I'd never own one."

and

""My neighbor bought a Pontiac Aztek automobile. I think they're stupid looking and I'd never own one. Furthermore, he must be a total asshole. I think I'm justified in sneaking out tonight and secretly shooting out his car windows."

This icon is animated - it cycles through 8 pictures. If you try to catch it in one place, you have a 1 in 8 chance of hitting Hermione. But here:

http://img56.photobucket.com/albums/v170/geoviki/hermione.jpg

Actually, rant aside, I'm having fun imagining sporks and minions. (BTW, in case a spork is an American item, a spork is a combination of a spoon and a fork that fast-food places offer in plastic.)

[painless-j.livejournal.com]

I think you are too complimentary to them saying 'furthermore' and 'justified' :/ It's too complicated a level of thinking. I'd say, "My neighbour bought a Pontiac Aztek. What an asshole! Bang-bang!"

Spork? Wow! I've never seen one. Here they offer either spoons or forks. Or both :)

Icon: she looks good and she looks ok as Hermione too :))

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

So my profound conclusion: it's just ugly.

Agreed.

I will never understand why people feel the need to spew the kind of venom I've seen in those threads. I hadn't looked at them in a while (not since they first began), and went over to see what they were saying about your fic. I shouldn't have gone.

I just don't get it. And I don't mean that I don't get someone not liking a specific fic... no fic will be loved by everyone- that's the beauty of humanity, we all like different things. I just don't get the need to openly trash another person's work. What do they get out of it? I know that in the few cases when I've said something that ugly in public I have been left feeling just... ugly... negative and ugly and actually worse than I did before I said anything. I hate feeling like that. I hate feeling... hate. It brings forward everything I don't like about myself. I will never understand people who enjoy that.

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

addendum: same goes for the need to trash the people behind the work.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

My feelings exactly. I believe the saying: hate is an acid that corrodes the vessel in which its stored.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Well, I think the thing is-- wherever there is love, there is hate. I think 'hate' is really quite often an unhelpful term for a whole number of emotions-- disenfranchisement, hurt, bitterness, jadedness, disillusionment, anger, etc. Whenever you have emotional investment, you have the possibility of things going sour. Fanfic is no different from any other subject people care about in that respect, I think. I mean... it's weird how the two groups-- the people who 'get' the urge to mock & the people who say it's mean-- don't seem to -want- to understand where the other is coming from, really, on a gut level.

What I mean is... hate always seems meaningless and a waste of time from the outside, no matter -what- it's about. From the inside, if one emphathizes, one sees that one just can't control how frustrated one gets. I mean, I suppose at a certain point one should leave because things aren't 'all fun all the time' anymore, but it's hard to leave things one's invested in & has spent time with, even when one would be healthier without them. That's what addiction & habit-forming behavior is like. A lot of people are addicted/over-invested in online communities and stuff like that. A lot of people in fandom -are- dorks with no lives. Hey, I'm just sayin'. At least 70% are probably girls under 21 even now. How reasonable do you expect them to be?

Another thing is-- all these fics are popular, right?-- yours included. People always feel more bitterness towards the things they feel are unfairly loved, because this sort of hits those insecurities or frustrations with whatever -they- like or write being less popular. I think a certain 'kind' of fic becomes popular, most often, in the HP fandom. Fics with fanon!Draco are a premier example-- and you'd think, well, why would one have that much bile & bitterness towards other people's mad love affair with fanon!Draco? Well, it's just that whole dominant-philosophy rule resentment thing. Since fanon!Draco-fic dominates, people who think he's a stupid dork feel marginalized and ignored, and their fic passed by.

Come to think of it, the 'real' Draco would probably be one of those people participating in those hate-threads-- he's just that kind of boy. He's cowardly yet full of vitriol & resentment towards 'The Man' (Harry Potter, Dumbledore, the pro-Mudblood mentality, etcetc). I think the reason so many people identify as 'Slytherin' is because they identify with this sort of teen-gothy ideal, y'know? 'Fuck the world', and so on. When the majority doesn't think like you, and they seem to have all the popularity/power/whatever, it's easy to become bitter-- since fandom is really an online community just like any 'real life' one in its dynamics.

Mind you, I don't hate fanon!Draco -writers- or even their fics-- so I wouldn't post blasting any of them even as I giggle at the snark. It's supposed to not be taken all that seriously, too, the way all mocking is. It's kind of just heaps of bitter sarcasm. Being sincere really grates on some people's nerves, I think. That's not necessarily evil or anything, any more than Snape is 'evil' or 'bad'.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

What I'm saying is, being a nasty-talking anonymous coward doesn't make you a sucky person~:) I also think people who really hold that belief and identify with that sentiment would thus resent people who imply, by prettifying him, that Draco has to stop being a nasty-talking coward to be likable. Though really, that's only one reason for disliking Cassie Claire's or Resonant's or Maya's fics. I love and adore Maya's writing and her Draco, mind you, and she's my friend-- but most of the criticism of her characterizations isn't unfounded. Now, you could talk about -how- it's said, of course, but the point of the threads wasn't con-crit, see, it was just to let off steam and be snarky. Most people who snark & mock don't care about either the fics in question or being good reviewers. They just want to sound off, and well-- the ability to be abrasive and loud and mocking is like, the basis of a lot of American youth culture, I think. This doesn't mean that all these teenagers are mean & ugly-spirited, necessarily, does it?

Some people have a -thing- about being rigidly canon-accurate, in a lot of venues. You'd call them purists, outside of fandom, I think-- and most of the writers listed write things -I'd- consider significantly OOC (though I love some of their writing dearly). Purists were always somewhat fanatical, but that's not the same thing as hate. I think, in summation, that it looks worse than it is, and that those mini-rants get written with a lot more humor than they get received with :>

~reena

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

What I'm saying is, being a nasty-talking anonymous coward doesn't make you a sucky person~:)

Well, it means that being a sucky person is the only aspect of which anyone sees of you - since by definition, every anonymous post is single and of itself, and can't be connected with any other post. Now, I always post under my own name. Which means that anyone following my journal is quite likely to get exhilarated!ajhalluk, depressed!ajhalluk, absolutely bloody furious!ajhalluk, suicidal!ajhalluk, really being quite rational for once!ajhalluk, posting when drunk(again)!ajahllku and so on. Now if you encounter one of these you may easily not like it much. You may easily not like the whole package, for that matter. But at least there's something to go on for a reasonable judgment.

But if the only thing you ever see of someone is a post which is anonymous, cowardly, nasty talking and aimed at you naturally you're going to assume the poster is a sucky person. Furthermore, if you pay any attention to such a post at all, you are likely to spend your imagination on the presumed deficiencies of the poster's skin, figure, job, educational attainments and sex-life.

Furthermore, you said:
"Some people have a -thing- about being rigidly canon-accurate, in a lot of venues. You'd call them purists, outside of fandom, I think-- and most of the writers listed write things -I'd- consider significantly OOC2.

Interestingly enough, being OOC was one of the principal allegations that was levelled at my work in the thread concerned. But, given that I write futurefic, I also make a fetish of being rigidly canon-accurate - at least in the sense that I always try to ask myself how, given a basis canon, my characters could possibly have ended up where I choose to put them - making all due allowances for how people do change. I'm inclined to think, therefore, that the accusation of being "OOC" is a bit like an accusation that X is a Mary-Sue; namely, a convenient label to chuck over the real complaint which is "I don't like this one."

You also say:

Most people who snark & mock don't care about either the fics in question or being good reviewers. They just want to sound off, and well-- the ability to be abrasive and loud and mocking is like, the basis of a lot of American youth culture, I think

And not just youth culture (and there in any event is no onjective evidence, either way, of the age of the people participating in the thread). Which is, unhappily, part of the reason why despite its awesome democratic traditions, the sheer boldness of the social experiment of the last two hundred and thirty years, the flashing glories of its scientific advances and the sheer generosity and heroism of many of its people, and a decent number of its governments (including in particular FDR, a particular hero of mine) why the US currently enjoys (if that is the right word) the reputation it does at present in the rest of the world.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Now that I think of it, I realize that I haven't fully considered how it would feel to be on the receiving end of one of those threads. I mean, I haven't written any largely-known long work in fandom, so I suppose it's easy to say things one way or the other from the comfy corner I'm at.

The problem, it seems to me, is that there's such an overwhelming attitude of "if you're not squeeing with the rest of us, shut the hell up" in fandom, so that con-crit wouldn't necessarily be any more well-received by a work's fans (or author!) than an anonymous flame-type thing. I write a lot of stuff criquing -trends- in fanfic (not any particular fanfic, even), and I still get flack for it as being mean and attacking innocent writers somehow. So it's just that I understand where the mockers are coming from emotionally and that obscured my source of empathy with the writers. So yah... it hurts when people basically say your writing sucks (I should know, a person I respected said that to me recently)... but the overwhelming fandom attitude of "say nothing if you have nothing nice to say" sucks too, y'know.

After all, these people weren't saying these things to the writer's faces, theoretically, so unless you wanted to indulge in some bile-spewing, no one had a reason to come except morbid curiousity. Just like one doesn't have to read Fandom Wank and such. This was just... a sign of fannish discontent there's no easy other outlet for. Those fics are generally -so- unquestioningly worshipped that it would drive me up the wall even if it was a fic I adored. And in fact, the adulation `Underwater Light' receives exasperates me a bit, though I really love the fic.

But yes. I suppose it all depends on whether you view snarky vitriol as cute & amusing-- hey, it's possible to see it like that. The threads -I- read (in the original post, like 2 weeks ago) were more funny than anything. I'd like to think I could laugh at crit of my own work, if it was more than "it SUCKS". The criticisms -I- saw had more detail than that, and usually, even if I'd liked that particular fic, I'd laughed and thought 'yeah, that's true'. I think the question of 'are mean jibes funny' is a great diving line between people, from what I can see :>
Also, it helped that I recognized the writing style/personality of a number of posters, and I like the people in question. :> :>

I wouldn't disagree that your fic has leeway 'cause it's set in the future-- but a number of the fics bashed were set in Hogwarts (not least Cassie Claire's trilogy & UL & so on). Personally, I haven't read it so I can't quite comment-- I'm rather clingy to my Draco being with Harry (and until recently, Neville was a non-entity in my mind as far as romantic lead). Still... this is why I don't read post-Hogwarts fics if I can help it. I like my Dracos to start out with a canon characterization-- so I could see his development. Knowing this bias, I realize I'm unlikely to give future-fics as much of a chance as most people, so I don't read them. So basically, I generally don't finish fics I -hate-. But... *shrugs*... I imagine a lot of people aren't as sensitive as I am to writing they dislike, so they keep reading out of some morbid curiousity...? Or just because everyone else in fandom's doing it, in the cases of popular fics-- to see what the fuss is about.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Sometimes, also, I have -major-, major issues with a fic, and keep reading it 'cause it does hit a kink (or is NC17 & H/D, ahahah). I still wouldn't heap the author or fic with insults, 'cause... I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings... but the hate community was -made- to be a corner to let off steam in an isolated area-- like screaming in a locked room. So... I mean, that's not quite the same as posting a comment you sign, saying "blah-blah-blah-your-fic-is-laughable-blah". And, as I said, the comments -I- saw regarding fics I -have- read weren't unfounded as far as the OOCness charge. It's just 'not okay' to say it even signed in and politely phrased, so one gets frustrated, I think. Some people want fandom to be a happy loving community of fun-fun-fun and some people want a more serious writers/readers' workshop, and those two attitudes seem to perenially clash.

What I mean is, I don't think there is a real resolution between the people with the two different attitudes-- crit vs. squee. Because while the squee-lov fandom may -say- they don't mind softly-phrased crit, you don't generally see the people who say that actually -write- any crit in public (and generally these are the people who say they send their crit privately). Whereas you can be pretty certain the mockers -do- squee at some fics also (since they -are- in fandom). *sigh* And I agree about the US, but since it's a country and not a random person, the rules of engagement are different, kinda. I think :>

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

After all, these people weren't saying these things to the writer's faces, theoretically, so unless you wanted to indulge in some bile-spewing, no one had a reason to come except morbid curiousity.

Why morbid curiosity? After all, the site was widely discussed; are you saying it was impossible for any writer to go there other than to see if their own work was being mentioned? Mightn't they have gone there to see what was going on generally?

This sounds like the classic f_w excuse. They always tell you that you needn't participate but actually 1) some kind friend always tells you you've been f_w'd 2) human nature forbids that once told, you won't follow the link and 3) despite f_w's alleged rules, someone from that community always comes over to your lj to "spread the hate more readily" sooner or later (a year ago before I gave up allowing anonymous posting, I got an actual death threat - admittedly a very feeble one - courtesy of having featured on f_w).

Also, people aren't just writers in fandom: they're readers too, you know. In fact, one of the amusing things about the "anon" stuff was that it made it easier to think that "anon1" who was expressing exactly what you felt yourself about Fic A (though of course, you were far too well-bred to say it, at least, not anonymously and not on the internet), was obviously a calm, sane individual, whereas "anon2" who was being viciously irrational about one's own fic (Fic B), was clearly an unstable bitch who would shortly be found dead in her own apartment, partially gnawed by alsatian dogs. But they could easily have been the same woman.

As I said above, I agreed with lexin and to that extent you, that there is a cult of "nice" in fandom which probably is somewhat frustrating. And that good concrit is not easy to come by. Also, since the day the site came out was the day after I'd been describing one of the fics featured to a group of people in the pub using the immortal words, "No, no! Look, you have to understand it isn't as nearly bad as I'm making it sound!" I hardly thought I was on strong ground for opposing the idea of snarky vitriol about fics.

But I do think there's every difference in the world between posting anon on the internet, randomly, and talking about fics in person as between fans. For instance, in the pub if I was as nasty as some of the anon jerks in the thread were about fics (not mine, actually; I stand by my opinion expressed in the thread that given the title of the site, the mod behaved perfectly fairly in my case about distinguishing between attacks on the fic and on the author, and there certainly wasn't anything said about LoP which I'd say was illegitimate as criticism (I mean, I don't think all of it was necessarily helpful nor did I agree with it, but it all seemed like a fair enough response to the book if you felt that way, and certainly no skin off my nose) I'd be in line for a punching.

But I don't think mean jibes are funny. I think cutting comments can be funny, but one has to measure the balance between the pleasure of saying it, and the damage it's likely to cause. To give an example, there's been one or two times with previous lovers that I've been tempted to deliver the line, "Frankly, darling, I've had more enjoyable cervical smears." Well, that's concrit. I suppose. And in the examples given, true. But I've never actually used it. Because sometimes things aren't cute and amusing: they go to the heart of what someone thinks of themselves. And if you want to destroy someone; fine: but maybe one ought to consider what is at stake before starting to play.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Wah. Heheh it's funny, because I think I feel more 'mature'(??) around people who act like it (say, you), and more resentful & liable to laugh meanly (while saying nothing) around people whose snark is out of control. It's an ugly side of human nature-- just sort of to stand there and allow people to say the things you'd never say 'cause, well, I too am 'too well-bred', ahahah.

Mind you, I don't think I was precisely defending whoever said the mean things so much as empathizing with them, because I feel their frustration with fandom-squee myself, though I don't bash specific fics (on purpose & in public, heheh).

The last mitigating factor in my accepting attitude, which I don't think I've mentioned yet, is that I don't take any level of fic-crit as being a personal attack on the same level as saying something directly about a person's other skills (say, sexual skills, heh). It's a delicate issue, of course, since you can't say people -shouldn't- have their feelings hurt via their fic. But in general, I wouldn't equate saying someone's an awful writer-- and even more specifically, such-and-such is a horrific fic by that writer-- with saying they suck as a person somehow. I myself have written fic I consider awful (ahhh, I'm so modest), so it'd be hypocritical. We all suck to one degree or another :D Even Shakespeare's plays aren't all on the same level, necessarily. *shrugs*

I think the ability to see one's work as separate from one's identity is an important skill for a writer to have, if they plan on seriously being a writer. But again, I can't dictate what does and doesn't hurt people's feelings, whether or not it's 'useful', so in the end... while I understand both sides, I'd have to say the anti-hate-thread people probably have ethics on their side.

That said... even knowing that, I'm uninclined to judge people harshly, so I remain empathetic yet neutral~:)

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

The last mitigating factor in my accepting attitude, which I don't think I've mentioned yet, is that I don't take any level of fic-crit as being a personal attack on the same level as saying something directly about a person's other skills (say, sexual skills, heh).

Well, that I think is interesting. Because my first serious boyfriend said something about my sexual skills that I accepted as true for years, and which limited me profoundly. In fact it was only when he said something devastating about my writing skills (in relation to which I was prepared to be much more defensive because, after all, he coudl be more over because it wasn't on the same level)but where I'd had objective verification that his opinion wasn't necessarily true just because he'd said it(as I said: first boyfriend: not first literary critic) that I was able to say: well, if he could be that wrong and that nasty about my writing, maybe I am ok in bed after all.

But I agree that may be an atypical way of looking at the problem.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I personally would be careful to never call someone an 'awful writer' even if I positively -hate- several fics of theirs (nevermind one), because I certainly wouldn't want to hear it. Saying a fic-- or a number of fics, say all my H/D fics-- suck is very different than saying -I- suck as a writer. And it's a distinction I cling to :D
Writers, basically can improve-- anyone can improve any set of skills, sexual or writerly, I think-- because they are, after all, -skills- and therefore intrinsically improvable. One's identity as a writer would be more usefully based on dedication and ability to stand back and be your own harshest critic (ahh, 'kill your darlings') than by innate 'talent'. In fact, part of the reason I like fic-crit of almost any variety is because I think it's -all- useful-- it's reader response, and if you think about it, you can see what your target audience is, at the very least. I mean, one may say 'this isn't everyone's cup of tea', but it's more helpful to know exactly -whose- cup of tea it actually isn't (or is, by reverse).

Like, I find it interesting to read someone criticize Aja's recs & `A Thousand Beautiful Things' and say something about 'romantic & OOC like Aja's own writing', because the word 'romantic' used in that context really explained a lot. Aja herself wrote that it would appeal to 'shippers'. Now, I myself wouldn't rec/praise a fic if I thought it had a limited appeal to people who already have a built-in 'button' it's pushing (so that a fic with a tattoo would only appeal to people who like tattoos), but I think that's my own bias. I think actual -good writing- should transcend fic-kink, and you can't actually -defend- a fic objectively(!) by saying it caters to someone's ship obsession. But that's a tangent.

Anyway, just that word, 'romantic', told me that this person probably has a bias towards a certain kind of H/D, anyway-- I'm guessing that ideally (if this person -had- anti-romantic ideals, though that might be a contradiction in terms) it would be fic that doesn't make allowances, that doesn't sugarcoat anything, that reveals the characters in all their flawed non-glory. And a lot of times, I find that I like a fic which puts the characters through the paces and shows the reader their ugly side (say, H/D fic written by non-shippers) -more-, even though I'm a hopeless shipper and romantic, because I don't feel it panders to me and doesn't condescend by implying I can only like a pretty, 'nice' version of the characters together.

All of this is solved by only trusting the opinion of people you either already respect & know or, failing that, find you agree with :D

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

I personally would be careful to never call someone an 'awful writer' even if I positively -hate- several fics of theirs (nevermind one), because I certainly wouldn't want to hear it. Saying a fic-- or a number of fics, say all my H/D fics-- suck is very different than saying -I- suck as a writer. And it's a distinction I cling to :D
Writers, basically can improve-- anyone can improve any set of skills, sexual or writerly, I think-- because they are, after all, -skills- and therefore intrinsically improvable. One's identity as a writer would be more usefully based on dedication and ability to stand back and be your own harshest critic (ahh, 'kill your darlings') than by innate 'talent'

The above is quite clearly bollocks. My singing ability (let's leave sex and writing behind) is virtually nil. I can improve it, true, but not to a point that anyone would willingly sit and listen: only to a point where anyone who'd heard my yowling then would appreciate that my yowling now was better.

But actually, it was quite clear that a lot of the fanfic_hate stuff was certainly saying "X is an awful writer" even where the mod was being careful to stop people saying "X is awful". Me, for example. It's hard to interpret criticisms like "if she wants to express opinions, why not use live journal" as anything other than a suggestion that I should stop writing, rather than change anything.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...Yeah, okay, the second thread got into 'just plain mean' territory. Meep. I sort of cringe when I look at stuff like that, and I probably over-excuse the trend because I feel the opposite trend is strong enough to need plucking. Both the trolls and the screaming fangirls annoy me :D Ahh, but they are legion, whereas intelligent commentary is... unpopular.

You're right about there being skills you can't quite improve very far without innate talent (though music & the visual arts are less improvable than writing, since writing has a very strong technical component & I believe everyone has an imagination and almost everyone has something to say, even if they don't know it and never find out). I didn't qualify myself with saying that talent -matters-, of course, and I really do cringe at people who do bash people on that level. I understand vitriol about fics, but that sort of personal attack has just... nothing to do with real lit-crit and everything to do with people who just... fit into that category of people who spit into others' drinks or whatever. But that's two separate types of snark. One takes itself too seriously, I think, and one doesn't.

And yah, that bit about about your fic was really harsh. Meh. That's what I meant about writing them off as being not worthy of enough respect to listen to, though I suppose it's possible to ignore the way it was phrased and take it as a criticism of your dialogue-writing style in particular. Heh. But that's neither here nor there. Man, it sure is hard to defend mean people, I must say :D

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

posting when drunk(again)!ajahllku

I knew we had more in common than a love for Draco Malfoy and an affection for Golden Age detective stories.