geoviki | The Etiquette of Holiday fics

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The Etiquette of Holiday fics

Like all the rest of you, I'm delighting in the reams and reams of new stories and art (and this year's art is especially terrific!). There's the granddaddy,

merry_smutmas, and then others like

harry_holidays,

hd_holidays,

smutty_claus,

lupin_snape.... an embarrassment of riches!

As we are encouraging each other as writers and artists, I'm trying to leave feedback as well. One thing that caught my notice, though, has left me feeling uneasy, and I wondered what your views are: In your opinion, is it uncouth to leave concrit that's negative on a fest fic? (Disclosure: this is not anything that's happened regarding my own fic, just other folk's.)

I don't see the author requesting any, for one thing. Personally, I won't do it, but then I never leave anything less than praise unless I'm asked specifically and privately. If I don't like something, I just pass it by. Which unfortunately is the same response to something I've not yet read, so the writer is never sure if I'm unhappy or just behind (if the writer even cares what I think), but there you go.

But IMHO, these stories are gifts. And I can't see criticising a gift. Am I over-sensitive? What do you authors and artists think?

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i don't really see pointing out a few things in an otherwise squeeful review as "ripping to shreds." if there are aspects of the stories that really bothered me, esp. if i liked the fic a lot in general, i'd practically be lying if i only said "this was awesome!".

i actually think that the anon exchanges are an opportunity to [unknowingly] leave concrit for well-known writers. i think that a lot of people are hesitant to speak their mind if seemingly everyone else thinks this author is amazing. but in anon exchange, you have no idea who you are leaving fb for. also, if a review really bothers an author, they always have the chance to respond anonymously [i certainly would]. there's no rule against that.

i obviously agree with you! i love that you're so pragmatic about this :). i'd always rather have a review that explains in detail what someone liked and didn't like over a squeeful response that i can tell isn't entirely honest.

technically, the author can always respond anonymously--just like a lot of people will respond anon to the comment left by the recipient of their fic. i certainly would choose that route if someone left a comment that i felt required an immediate response.

i completely agree with that, and that's why i'll certainly continue to point out if something bothered me when leaving an otherwise very positive review.

but i'd never leave negative fb on a fic for me because the person tried to write it for me and i respect that effort.

i dunno, it strikes me as fandom making rather a big deal out of concrit again. i mean, what's the end zone? it would forever be a gift fic so why does it magically (no pun intended) become more appropriate to concrit it on jan 1st? -shrugs-

It's not the anonymity that's at issue, for me. It's the giftiness. When the author posts the story to her own website or archive account or LJ, and indicates that she's presenting the story as something she's created, that's the point at which criticism is appropriate.

On the gifting website or LJ, the story is not about the author, it's about the recipient, and it's incredibly rude to the recipient to say, "Dude, your gift sucks."

I don't believe in concrit for any sort of fannish product, or even any real product, given as a gift, whether it be for a birthday or a holiday or whatever. Simply put, would you criticize - even in a constructive way - a homemade gift such as...a hand-knit scarf or something, given to you or someone else as a gift? I would have to say no. Even if your criticism is constructive, like pointing out that the ends are loose here or the knitting is uneven there, it just...ruins the whole mood of the gift-giving. I know some people are thickskinned when it comes to criticism, but for the rest of us who are not, even constructive criticism in a positive setting can feel somehow hurtful, especially if the target of that critique is something written or produced in a moment of love/altruism. It goes against the grain. Like separating work and plan - I might give constructive criticism on a scarf that someone knit for a class or was perhaps knitting at the moment on a whim, but I would not give that criticism if the scarf was a heartfelt heirloom or a special gift, no matter how awful it is knit from a strict technique standpoint.

i disagree on two points

a) if the fic is inherently a gift, then it doesn't really lose that charecteristic because it's posted elsewhere, it's always a gift fic. it's an arbitrary date that it gets posted elsewhere. what about authors who don't repost? i've nearly done that myself until i was reminded like 3 times to repost my springsmut fic to my LJ.

b) as i've mentioned to bethbethbeth below, "your story sucks" wouldn't ever qualify as concrit in my book. that's never an appropriate comment to say to anyone - author, recipient, mod or innocentbystander.

that's my take on it atleast. i don't buy into the whole fics are "sacred gifts" like the ones you exchange with family members/friends/co-workers etc. -shrugs- a fic is a fic is a fic to me :)

I'm pretty much of the opinion that I shouldn't knock a gift horse in the mouth. Since pretty much all we read are gifts to fandom one way or the other, I don't think it's polite unless the author specifically requests it. Holiday fests are about giving, not getting, so I don't think it's appropriate for an author to ask for concrit at all in that sort of forum, either. But after the reveal, anything goes. :-)

At the moment, the only holiday challenge I've really had a chance to participate in is the

sshg_exchange, but on the whole, when it comes to something like this, if I can't say something nice, I just don't say anything at all. The people participating in these challenges are (hopefully) giving their best effort (even if they are a pinch hitter) writing to a prompt that might not even suite them, so I don't want to be the person raining down on their parade telling them what I disliked about what they wrote or their style.

I'm completely in two minds about this, but it breaks down like this:

I'm usually very much in favor of concrit, but doing it in the comments on someone's fic just, to me, looks like an attempt to embarrass them in public. Concrit should be emailed, or communicated another way.

Also, the relevance of the comments should be considered. If the fic's been uploaded somewhere it can't be edited, most concrit points are going to be pretty much useless. And as for criticising the choices that were made regarding the plot, etc, that doesn't work too well either, because of the very good point people have already made about the recipient's wishes. There's a time and a place for concrit, and a gift exchange is not the place to be doing it. If you must, wait until the author is revealed, and email your comments.

I'm actually terrified of being torn apart by fandom when Yuletide goes up, and at the moment wishing I'd never participated, I'm that afraid of having all my flaws pointed out in the bright lights of the Yuletide site.

Uh...since I think you probably mean me (unless someone else is reviewing, in which case cool), no the point is not to get people flocking to my LJ, nor is it to cause wank. I review every single fic I read all year round and have been for quite some time; it's an essential part of reading for me.

I am always looking for new fic to read, and a fest like this (small enough that I can read everything) is the perfect way to do so. By making myself read everything, regardless of pairing or summary, I've found lots of really great fic I would otherwise have missed. So far I've found eight rec-worthy fics, and several others that were enjoyable. To me, that's worth reading through the ones I didn't enjoy.

If I wanted to start wank, I'd leave negative comments on the fics themselves, but you'll notice that I don't comment on fics I don't like, or even on fics I'm half-hearted on. I leave only positive comments and only on the fics I like. The reviews are for me to process my thoughts, and maybe someone else on my flist will get some use from them.

I wouldn't say anything bad about a gift I received but have critiqued fics that other people received on a public exchange the way I would critique every fic. And yes that included on instance of "Maybe you should get a beta-reader spellchecker".

It's the difference between complaining about a fic you got and taking somebody aside and telling them that maybe they could have been more thoughtful when picking a gift for outside person C.

I leave only positive comments on fics I liked (even if I did have criticism as well) and don't comment at all on fics I didn't like. That's pretty much how I leave fb at other times as well, because I don't really want to deal with angry authors (even if they say they want concrit in their headers, I won't say anything unless I really know for sure they mean it). I write reviews of everything I read on my journal anyway, so I can talk about any criticism I had there. I do write reviews of gift fics as well, but as with all my reviews I am careful to distinguish between bad writing and things that are just not my thing, but which others might enjoy. But the reviews are mainly for me to write my thoughts on what I read, which is why they're on my journal.

When the author posts the story to her own website or archive account or LJ, and indicates that she's presenting the story as something she's created, that's the point at which criticism is appropriate

I agree, entirely. Until the fic is presented, name attatched, to a public space that fic wasn't written for the public TO criticise.

A fic that's published on the 'web it's published, it's out there for public consumption, it's the writer going "see what I did" and, IMO, requesting feedback.

When it's a fic exchange gift? No. It's something that was written for a single person. That's the difference for me. The audience.

Until it goes up in a comm with a name attatched, it's not there for me. I'm just a happy voyeur who needs to keep their mouth shut.

what about authors who don't repost?

To me this indicates a high likelyhood of the author's lack of desire to take ownership of the fic and claim it as something that is their's and have it presented for public consumption and consideration.

I do not repost fic exchange fics. Why? Because I don't write them for the public, or myself - I write them for the person I was assigned. The public reads in fic comms are irrelevant, and frankly since it was written for a single person it doesn't really matter what everyone else thinks of the fic - it's flatly none of their business.

When I write in general I write with the awareness of pleasing a broader audience and their input into the fic. When I'm writing for an exchange I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks should be there, except the person I wrote it for. That's the difference. In a fic exchange there's only one opinion that matters-

The recepient's.

I say if the criticism is constructive and meant to assist the author, then leave whatever you want. We can't all expect to have a slew of perfect reviews all the time, not even in fic fests. I also think that if you can find something negative about a fic, you can also find something positive. If the feedback is dealt with in a polite, constructive, non-hurtful way, then I think it's fine to leave a little negative feedback.

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In your opinion, is it uncouth to leave concrit that's negative on a fest fic?

Very much so. Fest fic are gifts, just the same as a physical box of chocolates, pair of ear-rings, CD, DVD, etc. etc. etc.

I am sure (or maybe I'm just too optimistic) that people wouldn't go to a party and when the hostess opened her presents go 'Urgh, that necklace/picture/whatever is dreadful' or even 'Nice enough, but look at the finish', in a loud enough voice for other people to hear - surely they wouldn't, would they? Well, it's exactly the same with gift fic. If you leave any kind of critcism, no matter how con, it's meant to be, it is still basically rubbishing the gift in a public forum.

But IMHO, these stories are gifts. And I can't see criticising a gift. Am I over-sensitive? What do you authors and artists think?

No, you're not. Not at all. I'm with you one hundred and ten percent. It totally bad manners. As an author I'd be devastated if it happened to me, as a comment leaver, it would just never occur to me to do so. I'm like you insofar as I don't leave any kind of comment other than positive anyway, unless asked and then I'd do in privately, and even then I feel uneasy. But for a gift fic, totally wrong.

I think it's perfectly all right to leave mixed comments on gift stories - the "I loved X and Y, though I'm not sure I understood the ending" kind of comments. I don't really see why everything would have to be positive - if the writer wrote the story in two days, she'll obviously know that already and can use it as an excuse. Sure, only the recipient really matters, but the comment function is there so that people can comment, and if your reaction is mostly squee with some un-squee mixed in, I think the comment should reflect that.

I think it's incredibly tacky for the recipient to point out flaws, though.

I don't generally object to public reviews. In fact, I'm a big fan of

oulangi's reviews, and there was a big kerfuffle over them.

I do, however, think it's in poor taste to leave negative reviews of fics written for a gift exchange fest, and particularly where it underscores the spirit of the fest in and of itself. I can see it being a different story once the fest was over, authors were revealed, and stories were being posted in comms or the authors' LJ.

Frankly speaking, I thought what you said about some of the stories were unfair, especially when you hadn't read some of them to completion.

I always note if I was unable to finish a story, and my comments are always based on what I have read of it. I don't think it's unfair to say "I couldn't finish reading this story and here's why."

I would agree that it's poor taste if I were actually "leaving" my reviews on the fic. But I'm not. I'm writing them in my own journal and leaving only positive feedback on fics I liked.

But I really don't think we're going to come to an agreement on that. I was only commenting because I resent the idea that I must be writing reviews specifically to cause harm or wank. I don't know how you even found my journal, but I've now unjoined the smutmas comm so that if anyone reads the comm's flist, my posts won't show up on there. (Still possible to come across them via friendsfriends or just random journal hopping, but there's nothing I can do about that other than flock and I don't want to do that because it means I have to friend everyone back who friends me, which I don't like to do.)

It was easy to come across your LJ when you're also a participant in smutmas. I randomly go to people's LJs that I don't know if I think I might have something in common with that person, or they've written stories I like, or out of general curiousity.

Point taken regarding your purpose for posting your reviews.

*shrugs*

I think it's rude to leave direct negative feedback in one of the anon fests, but beyond that it's quite helpful to get fic reviews and recommendations in other people's journals. It might be a bit distasteful to some, but I find the idea of anon reviews at a distance quite interesting. But then I don't participate directly in Smutmas.

I do read the LJ you mention and I don't think it's negative (especially as the writer is frequently saying, 'this just isn't my thing'); if anything, it's pointing me to stories because I'm too lazy to read them all directly in the communities.

To be honest, I find the exchanges very contrived at times; a good reviewer will cut through all the artifice to point out that despite the fact that the fic featuring cross-dressing genderswap AU Bottom!Harry with six children, it's actually a groundbreaking story that deserves reading.

I haven't left what I would call negative feedback--just made a couple of points, one concerning a slight canon deviation and the other about pacing

Since when is fanfiction ever even remotely concerned with canon?

For the most part, fan fiction is taking canon characters and playing with them in situations that make the author (or, in ficfests, the recipient) happy. It's akin to small children playing with Barbie dolls or G.I. Joes... canon only vaguely applies, and then only when the author decides they want it to.

Sorry if I sound bitter here, but the entire idea of "canon" makes me snarf my coffee this morning, especially when inundated with H/D, Snarry, Snupin, and all the other decidedly non-canon smut and romance fic.

Here's the thing. Exchange fic or not, I see all fanfic as being "gifts" in one way or another. We're not getting paid for this, and if we look hard enough, we're finding stuff that might as well be written for us. On the other hand, a lot of stuff? Is very definitely not written for us. Fandom is like a huge, enormous, office Christmas party in which people sometimes get awesome gifts, sometimes get awful gifts, and sometimes their gift-givers are mysteriously absent. At that point, you have to get into the question of whether it's rude to leave critical feedback at all.

And that depends on what you mean by "leaving" feedback. Are we talking about wandering up to the author, poking them, and saying, "Hey, this and this and this didn't work for me. And Clark Kent? WOULD NOT EAT MARGARINE."? Because no, I wouldn't do that. But if I'm writing reviews in my journal of stuff I've read, I may launch into a five-line rant about Clark eating margarine, because I'm in fandom to talk about my thoughts on characters I love (or... sometimes just watch, as I don't love everyone. But you know what I mean). I want to hear what other people think of Clark eating margarine. Do they agree with me that a Kansas-raised guy who grew up on a dairy farm, is immune to the problems presented by fat and cholestorol, and can soften the butter with a mere look, will have no use for an inferior bagel spread? Or do they think he'll give in to his current girlfriend and suffer with her taste for vegetable-oil-based fake butter?

When it comes to gift fic written specifically for me, I will leave positive comments no matter what I really think of the fic. There is always something to praise, even if it is merely the fact that this person took a request of mine and wrote something for it. When it comes to negative comments, period, I won't leave those on a fic, but I have absolutely no problem writing about them in my own journal. I hope that's a distinction people are willing to make, because suggesting we can't discuss the things that left us cold about certain fics even in our own journals takes niceness way too far. Reviews should not be 100% praise all the time; that takes away part of their utility (think about this for a minute: someone with completely divergent taste from you writes a review and hates a fic. Everything she hates, you've always loved. She hates something you've never heard of. Worth a whirl? Maybe?), as well as putting the kibosh on fans' ability to discuss things with other fans.

Not everything is about the author.

I don't generally leave unsolicited concrit, but I particularly wouldn't for a gift exchange, where the writer may be struggling with a pairing or scenario she doesn't usually write and has to post her story even if she's not entirely satisfied with it. It's just not the time for it, in my opinion.

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The Etiquette of Holiday fics

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